Make Magestorm great again

[Apoc1313]

If you want to disagree, Apoc, then disagree, but you would be hard pressed to challenge my intelligence. - I better watch myself im talking to a genius lol

The desire people are having is a push-pull between Clerics being tank (focal point) or support (tertiary focus); the third option is DPS (secondary focus, increased game speed). They were originally the first, then we transitioned it into the second, and with their redesign I pushed it into the 3rd.
- they are not only the 1st and the second but all three.

[Apoc1313]

When I first brought this topic up (in-game) everyone was with me even healy. Now on the forums I feel like its gotten to be this on going argument we've been having for years and years, To keep doing this and expecting different results is pure insanity. I was grateful to play the game again for a bit, but when your shooting stuff and nothing dies it gets really boring. You guys can go ahead and play your healstorm.

[Healy]

When I first brought this topic up (in-game) everyone was with me even healy. Now on the forums I feel like its gotten to be this on going argument we've been having for years and years, To keep doing this and expecting different results is pure insanity. I was grateful to play the game again for a bit, but when your shooting stuff and nothing dies it gets really boring. You guys can go ahead and play your healstorm.

i still agree with you,its just that everyone seems to have his own opinion on how to nerf them.
Guess what ,ima stay out of this topic now and be open to anything that gets done,but something has to be done.
I love playing clerics and id certainly feel better playing them if they are not hated as much as they are now.

[Sorien]

You can either go with effective HP or effective heals when referring to that mechanic, not both.

I don't understand? For every point of damage you actually take .6, so healing yourself for 60 is equivalent to healing yourself for 100. What I mean by this is, you heal 100 points worth of damage dealt to you.

If you use both effective HP and effective heals you're more than doubling the effect.

Example:
Normal HP: 200
Reduction: 40%
Effective HP: 280
Heal Amount: 10
Effective Heal: 14

Effective HP Only: It takes 28 heals to heal their full health. (28*10=280)
Effective HP + Effective Heal = It will take 20 heals to heal to their full health. (20*14=280)

You can't say they have an effective health of X amount and also say they effectively heal for X increased amount.. it's one or the other.

So an Arcanist paid for 100 points of damage with Manastorm for 27 mana. You're able to nullify that damage with only 15 mana. It's a bit ridiculous.

You're ignoring the fact that Manastorm is a massive AOE and can hit an entire team of players if the situation permits. Manastorm may work amazingly well as a single target spell, but that isn't it's main focus.

288/100 = 2.88
2.88 * 40 = 115.2 (rounded to 115)
115 + 288 = 403

I'm not sure where you're getting 425 from.

My math was a bit different, and maybe I am right maybe I am wrong.

For every point of damage you take .6 instead. So how many times does .6 fit into 255?

255 / .6 = 425.

Yea... that's not how you do percentages, that's just division.

I'm gonna be honest here... almost all of your points are wrong and it seriously seems like you're overestimating or grasping at straws.

[Law]

I'm gonna be honest here... almost all of your points are wrong and it seriously seems like you're overestimating or grasping at straws.

My man. Why are you so hostile to me? Please, I'm just trying to remain friends.

40% damage reduction isn't equal to 140% hp. It isn't a linear increase. Let me illustrate this with an extreme example. 90% damage reduction.

If you shoot someone who has 90% damage reduction with a 10 damage spell, they get hit for 1. So if they have 10 HP, you need to shoot them 10 times with your 10 damage spell to kill them. This means their effective HP is 100.

Here's a graph I found on the internet that illustrates this:


It isn't linear, you see? 90% damage reduction isn't 190% max hp, it's 1000%.

Also, I'm not comparing the 100 effective healing to the 480 effective HP, or 288 real HP, I'm comparing the 100 to other damaging spells.

What actually happens in game is you heal 60 HP and your max is 288, Prayer doesn't change that. Prayer just changes how much damage people have to do to deal 288 damage to you. And even though Healing 7 heals 60 HP and always will, it UNDOES 100 points worth of damage the enemy did to you.

100 / 15 = 6.66, which is the mana to effective heal ratio of Healing 7. Manastorm is 100/27, or 3.7, and is the most efficient end game damage spell. Most are worse! So Clerics can literally out heal any damage dealt to them unless it is done by multiple sources. Not to mention they can spam Airwall for *1* mana that blocks end game spells that cost more than 20 to cast.

[Kuraokami]

Okay, you're back to pointless rationalization again.

Think about a clear vision of how you want the playstyle and game flow of a cleric to go. Now, dissect it. How much of what are you doing how often in this vision? Then check it. Is the vision realistic in regards to what others will be doing? How does this translate across different match sizes? Now, eliminate personal bias. Bring it down to a level that would be realistically accepted by others and seem neutral. Now, dissect it further into individual values in relation to the present. Then validate it from top to bottom for authenticity.

Now, what do others say? Use the above to reverse engineer either their values or their core vision. Translate. Now skew. Use your understanding of the different levels of desire to concrete numbers to manipulate various portions to suit your goals and the goals of others. Bake at 350 for 24 hours until the ashtray is complete. Paint accordingly.

[Barren]

OK here's another idea. People complain that clerics are able to keep their team alive while keeping themselves alive. To "fix" this, what if you split the Healing line into two lines, one for Self-Heals and one for Team Heals. You can space out the heal spells in each line so it's impossible to have a cleric that can tank (P5), heal others in a meaninfgul way, and effectively heal themselves. At best, they can have 2/3 of those, less if they decide they want to go the DK or Stonewall route.

Any thoughts?

[Law]

OK here's another idea. People complain that clerics are able to keep their team alive while keeping themselves alive. To "fix" this, what if you split the Healing line into two lines, one for Self-Heals and one for Team Heals. You can space out the heal spells in each line so it's impossible to have a cleric that can tank (P5), heal others in a meaninfgul way, and effectively heal themselves. At best, they can have 2/3 of those, less if they decide they want to go the DK or Stonewall route.

Any thoughts?

This sounds good, brother. You could merge them with "Lifegiving" and just have all the "Other" spells in one place. There are a lot of clerics that mainly just want to be fighters, like Tony, so this could give them an avenue to be a fighter cleric kind of like shadow priests in WoW.

However, I still want to see a heavy to nerf to Prayer. Clerics don't need other people to ruin games. Clerics can solo rush shrines, take them down, and heal themselves while throwing up airwalls and win the game all by themselves, and you'd need 3+ people on defense to stop it. Prayer needs to be nerfed hard. This mechanic alone needs to be dealt with.

If someone can think of a heavy nerf to Prayer, please propose it. Mine was: 10/15/20/25/33 Damage Reduction %, duration reduced to 15 seconds.

[Healy]

if u think this is a good sollution you actually have no fkin clue about this game lol.

Heres why,team 1 gets a fighter cleric,team 2 gets a BH cleric.....see where im going?
the fighter cleric will delete the game from his PC after that game cus everyone was raging so hard on him for being useless.
15 secs duration with 33% reduction?you gotta be trolling at this point

[Law]

if u think this is a good sollution you actually have no fkin clue about this game lol.

Why don't you say that to the other Cleric player that suggested it. I'm just being open minded, and honestly, you're just looking for reasons to villainize me.

I feel like Cleric players' knee-jerk reaction to a Prayer nerf is proof that it nerfs the actual reason you play Cleric. You just want to be invincible.

That's great for you isn't it? It just isn't great for everyone else.

[Kuraokami]

Wut? I already had heals split. The entirety of the cleric was split across multiple lines to have weaker but cheaper heals.

[Healy]

if u think this is a good sollution you actually have no fkin clue about this game lol.

Why don't you say that to the other Cleric player that suggested it. I'm just being open minded, and honestly, you're just looking for reasons to villainize me.

I feel like Cleric players' knee-jerk reaction to a Prayer nerf is proof that it nerfs the actual reason you play Cleric. You just want to be invincible.

That's great for you isn't it? It just isn't great for everyone else.

And again you are wrong,15 seconds is just not long enough to be worth the mana it costs so noone would even bother researching it,making it a useless line of spells......

[Barren]

if u think this is a good sollution you actually have no fkin clue about this game lol.

Heres why,team 1 gets a fighter cleric,team 2 gets a BH cleric.....see where im going?
the fighter cleric will delete the game from his PC after that game cus everyone was raging so hard on him for being useless.
15 secs duration with 33% reduction?you gotta be trolling at this point

In that scenario, team 1 can easily kill the team 2 cleric. The team 2 cleric is BH. That means he or she can also have high prayer or high self-heal, not both. Since they don't have both high prayer and high self heal, they can be killed pretty easily, especially if the fighter cleric is nailing him with DK (I am not sure if DK still overrides Prayer damage reduction, but if it doesn't, it needs to be re-added).

Also, games where a player has a 62-2 line because a cleric was glued to their hip will do far more to drive players away from the game. Keep using your cleric in that way and you will soon see what I mean.

Wut? I already had heals split. The entirety of the cleric was split across multiple lines to have weaker but cheaper heals.

Really? I remember different spell lines, but all of the heals were in the same line. I'm saying you can split them into two lines so a cleric can't heal themselves and heal others (effectively) without seriously jeopardizing their build (limited prayer, walls, offense).

[Healy]

and you are wrong Barren,u can get p5/fh/heal7,frac w3 if its on the livegiving line at lvl 30,what does that even change....
u have no DK/para thats it,but ur still prefectly fine as a tank and BHer

[Dain]

How many years did we have a consistent community of players with the "old" code? With all due respect and appreciation to the developers to bringing this back, when and why did the last healthy community we had disappear? I seem to recall due to all of this nonsense.

I agree with Healy. Reduce HP/prayer in small increments. Reduce wounding damage. Leave everything else alone